in other words, the party of abraham lincoln, theodore roosevelt and dwight d. eisenhower is in the grip of an ideology conceived by a pre-teenager who apparently remains to this day in a state of arrested adolescence. >> well, you know, the fact is, the idea that, you know, "no, i'm not ever going to do this no matter the circumstances, no matter if we're at war," whatever, it is a 12-year-old kind of thinking. you know, it's a childish way of thinking. but you can't just blame grover. there are members of the united states senate and united states house who have signed those pledges. and let me say, i mean, we're talking about taxes and that's the norquist pledge. you know, but supporters of other positions on immigration, a lot of different issues, when you're running for office ask you to sign a pledge, sign a pledge that you will support this, sign a pledge that you -- you know, the right thing for a member of congress to say is, "you know the way i think. you know what my values are. i will look at the issues through that lens. you know, but, you know, the